Do you get the sense Armstrong has to trade OEL regardless of the return? If that is the case it would be a huge mistake starting a rebuild. I would still love to see Armstrong have a chance to evaluate the current players under a new coach before making significant moves.
It would be peanuts to buy him out when you consider the cancerous impact he's had on the development of every young forward on this team. It wastes prospects and ruins the return we can get from them.
Well have you seen how the Coyotes hemorrhage money. Those are very expensive peanuts. And what great prospects has Tocchet ruined that have gone on to have great careers elsewhere?
Keller, Dvorak, Fischer, Crouse, and Hayton have all had their development dwarfed under Tocchet. Strome and Domi have both done better elsewhere, as has Duclair, who management had hoped Tocchet would be a good fit with. That's not even mentioning the veterans who have underperformed here. Rick Tocchet is just a black hole.
So Tocchet is the reason Keller doesn't play D and lacks compete alot of times? Hayton can't even crack the lineup and that's RT's fault too? Domi is getting ready to be traded to his 3rd team, thus RT's fault and Dibrincat made Strome, not the other way around.
When every single forward that has ever played here under Tocchet has underperformed, then yes, I'm going to say he's a part of the problem. That doesn't mean there aren't individual problems, but would you trust a surgeon whose had every patient suffer from complications?
I'm loving the gripes on Twitter about qualifying Fischer but not Hinostroza. My two cents:
Both are not blowing up the scoresheet. OK, fine.
Hinostroza: undersized scorer stuck on the 4th line with the emergence of Conor Garland and acquisition of Phil Kessel.
Fischer: 'Meat line' crasher and basher playing right where he should be, homegrown depth talent, fits both Tocchet and Armstrong's preferred style of play.
Seems like a straightforward decision to me. And probably safer in the current landscape to let him go UFA rather than qualifying him and then not being able to put him in a trade package.
Agree. Speed is good, but it's a tough balance to play fast and score, and also have the depth and muscle needed to grind down other teams, especially in the Western Conference. It's a heavier brand of hockey, it's been that way for 20 years, and that's how the best teams in the West are built. Fischer is an upside move, for sure.
Here's an OEL question: does he really have the influence as part of his NMC to set a 'window' for a trade? Contractual rights are one thing, but saying "trade me by such and such a day to here or here or not at all" would be a thorn in my ass, for sure.
I know that, I just mean that OEL is now going beyond controlling where he does and doesn't want to go. He's now going so far as to put a deadline on it.
This goes beyond what I would expect as part of a NMC. Tell me where you're willing to go, that's your right. Let me worry about how and when I get you there.
He has a full no move clause, so him allowing a trade to Boston or Vancouver is him being flexible. This isnt like other players with 10 team no trade lists or something like that. If OEL had to be open to a trade all season, then it wouldn't be a full NMC.
Small sample size but who was out there playing against and shutting down Nashville's better lines? Fish's defensive game and speed improved a ton and he accepted the role of shutting down the teams better players ... Not Vinny.
I can't say I saw every second of the Nashville series, so maybe he improved there, but from what I've seen so far his career, he's been the least physical player on the ice. He somehow accumulates hits, but I think it's a stretch to call him a physical player. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I can't see him being anything more than a fringe player at best, despite Tocchet forcing him into the lineup. When BA comes to his senses, both should be sent on the next train leaving town.
Given the news if we can't deal him by Friday he's staying; the Coyotes have even less leverage. I really just hope they move on and we keep him. Cut money elsewhere.
in general, i'll say this much about what's happened over the last little while:
even though there's been a lot of shifting around in the front office, the Coyotes finally have stable ownership for, like, the *first* time ever. as previously reported on here, Alex Meruelo is a guy that doesn't just give up on investments. his status as a Hispanic owner of a hockey team in a part of the US that has a lot of Hispanic people (and the subsequent actions he's done to build relations with the Hispanic community in Phoenix) also makes me think that he's committed to actually building up this franchise in a sustainable way. and I think that's going to filter down with his choices for GM and front office staff; Bill Armstrong and the scouting and directorial staff that have been hired seem to also be committed to what I think are the smartest ways to go about building an organizational depth chart.
so, even though it seems like times are grim now, I think, this time around, the rebuild will actually be properly done to create a successful team, because the pieces are there for a good foundation (namely, competent ownership). look at the Lightning and Jeff Vinik. look at the Penguins and Mario Lemieux. look at the Blackhawks and Rocky Wirtz. all of these franchises have seen *awful* financial times in the past, but the ownership was (eventually) there to provide stability. this, to me, seems like the beginning of eventually managing to build a respectable franchise that can put butts in seats and win night-in and night-out.
I want to see a complicated 27-way inter-league trade to accommodate OEL. He ends up on Boston, McAvoy ends up on Winnipeg, Mike Trout ends up on the Buffalo Bills, and the Justice League sends the Green Lantern to the cast of The View for future considerations.
I imagine this situation for GMBA is a lot like when Mike Hazen came to the Dbacks in 2016. A lot of people figured he would look to trade Goldy and Greinke to shed payroll. He decided to stick with both guys and then pull the trigger when his leverage was better. I think it worked for Hazen in the short term and long term.
I know this is a different situation for the Yotes but it’s hard to think that BA is dealing from a position of strength right now.
Time to move on... Four years until this team is hopefully playoff ready. He'll be 33 by then. Of course you can't give him away, but if he's willing to stay in a place and lose for years on end I think that tells alot about his true desire to win. Flip flops to work, great weather, no press coverage, no real fan expectations, just rakes in the cash. If he's willing to toil away knowing he can always schedule his vacation for April then that's his lame decision I guess.
If they do trade OEL for picks and prospects, I would like to see them take a chance on Tyson Barrie. He is a much better player than he showed in Toronto. Could be had for a reasonable deal.
If OEL is moved, who is our top defensive pairing? Chychrun and Goligoski? That's a lot of responsibility for the former. Alternatively, do you think Armstrong would swing for Krug or even Pietrangelo, who he's gotten to know over the past few years?
Krug is the same age and Pietraneglo is year older. I'm just hoping we're able to ice a half-decent roster next year. The buyout of Grabner and the choice not to offer Hinostroza a deal but to qualify Fischer make me worry that we're further investing in the failing coaching abilities of Tocchet. In typical Coyotes luck, we'll probably be last in the league the one year we don't have a draft pick.
You don't understand, they have to rebuild this entire operation. Chayka screwed them w/ lousy contracts and no draft picks. They weren't making the playoffs last year w/o covid. And the team bleeds money. They are going to be cutting salary. You think paying Phil 6.8 per year is a good deal for this team?
Phil's an albatross on this team. But we were supposed to have that magic elixir (Tocchet) that could help him succeed. It didn't work. We should've gone after Zucker, but Rick really advocated for Kessel (and I'll cut him some slack there, he safely assumed he could motivate Kessel based on prior experience).
Do you get the sense Armstrong has to trade OEL regardless of the return? If that is the case it would be a huge mistake starting a rebuild. I would still love to see Armstrong have a chance to evaluate the current players under a new coach before making significant moves.
No reason to eat Tocchet's last year when there's no expectation of the team and there's a cash crunch. He isn't getting axed.
It would be peanuts to buy him out when you consider the cancerous impact he's had on the development of every young forward on this team. It wastes prospects and ruins the return we can get from them.
Well have you seen how the Coyotes hemorrhage money. Those are very expensive peanuts. And what great prospects has Tocchet ruined that have gone on to have great careers elsewhere?
Keller, Dvorak, Fischer, Crouse, and Hayton have all had their development dwarfed under Tocchet. Strome and Domi have both done better elsewhere, as has Duclair, who management had hoped Tocchet would be a good fit with. That's not even mentioning the veterans who have underperformed here. Rick Tocchet is just a black hole.
So Tocchet is the reason Keller doesn't play D and lacks compete alot of times? Hayton can't even crack the lineup and that's RT's fault too? Domi is getting ready to be traded to his 3rd team, thus RT's fault and Dibrincat made Strome, not the other way around.
When every single forward that has ever played here under Tocchet has underperformed, then yes, I'm going to say he's a part of the problem. That doesn't mean there aren't individual problems, but would you trust a surgeon whose had every patient suffer from complications?
Christian Fischer was a second round pick.
Whoops. Missed that. You are correct. I have adjusted the story. Thanks.
I'm loving the gripes on Twitter about qualifying Fischer but not Hinostroza. My two cents:
Both are not blowing up the scoresheet. OK, fine.
Hinostroza: undersized scorer stuck on the 4th line with the emergence of Conor Garland and acquisition of Phil Kessel.
Fischer: 'Meat line' crasher and basher playing right where he should be, homegrown depth talent, fits both Tocchet and Armstrong's preferred style of play.
Seems like a straightforward decision to me. And probably safer in the current landscape to let him go UFA rather than qualifying him and then not being able to put him in a trade package.
Vinnie is very fast, and it usually leads to nothing. I think Fischer has more upside.
Agree. Speed is good, but it's a tough balance to play fast and score, and also have the depth and muscle needed to grind down other teams, especially in the Western Conference. It's a heavier brand of hockey, it's been that way for 20 years, and that's how the best teams in the West are built. Fischer is an upside move, for sure.
Here's an OEL question: does he really have the influence as part of his NMC to set a 'window' for a trade? Contractual rights are one thing, but saying "trade me by such and such a day to here or here or not at all" would be a thorn in my ass, for sure.
The Weasel gave him that leverage when he signed him to the extension.
I know that, I just mean that OEL is now going beyond controlling where he does and doesn't want to go. He's now going so far as to put a deadline on it.
This goes beyond what I would expect as part of a NMC. Tell me where you're willing to go, that's your right. Let me worry about how and when I get you there.
He has a full no move clause, so him allowing a trade to Boston or Vancouver is him being flexible. This isnt like other players with 10 team no trade lists or something like that. If OEL had to be open to a trade all season, then it wouldn't be a full NMC.
Small sample size but who was out there playing against and shutting down Nashville's better lines? Fish's defensive game and speed improved a ton and he accepted the role of shutting down the teams better players ... Not Vinny.
I can't say I saw every second of the Nashville series, so maybe he improved there, but from what I've seen so far his career, he's been the least physical player on the ice. He somehow accumulates hits, but I think it's a stretch to call him a physical player. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I can't see him being anything more than a fringe player at best, despite Tocchet forcing him into the lineup. When BA comes to his senses, both should be sent on the next train leaving town.
In Fischer's defense, he does have size and speed. The problem is he only uses it about 1 shift every 10 games.
That's what I said. Fischer is the better choice.
Given the news if we can't deal him by Friday he's staying; the Coyotes have even less leverage. I really just hope they move on and we keep him. Cut money elsewhere.
in general, i'll say this much about what's happened over the last little while:
even though there's been a lot of shifting around in the front office, the Coyotes finally have stable ownership for, like, the *first* time ever. as previously reported on here, Alex Meruelo is a guy that doesn't just give up on investments. his status as a Hispanic owner of a hockey team in a part of the US that has a lot of Hispanic people (and the subsequent actions he's done to build relations with the Hispanic community in Phoenix) also makes me think that he's committed to actually building up this franchise in a sustainable way. and I think that's going to filter down with his choices for GM and front office staff; Bill Armstrong and the scouting and directorial staff that have been hired seem to also be committed to what I think are the smartest ways to go about building an organizational depth chart.
so, even though it seems like times are grim now, I think, this time around, the rebuild will actually be properly done to create a successful team, because the pieces are there for a good foundation (namely, competent ownership). look at the Lightning and Jeff Vinik. look at the Penguins and Mario Lemieux. look at the Blackhawks and Rocky Wirtz. all of these franchises have seen *awful* financial times in the past, but the ownership was (eventually) there to provide stability. this, to me, seems like the beginning of eventually managing to build a respectable franchise that can put butts in seats and win night-in and night-out.
I want to see a complicated 27-way inter-league trade to accommodate OEL. He ends up on Boston, McAvoy ends up on Winnipeg, Mike Trout ends up on the Buffalo Bills, and the Justice League sends the Green Lantern to the cast of The View for future considerations.
We don't do the deal until we get Trout and Giannis.
I imagine this situation for GMBA is a lot like when Mike Hazen came to the Dbacks in 2016. A lot of people figured he would look to trade Goldy and Greinke to shed payroll. He decided to stick with both guys and then pull the trigger when his leverage was better. I think it worked for Hazen in the short term and long term.
I know this is a different situation for the Yotes but it’s hard to think that BA is dealing from a position of strength right now.
Time to move on... Four years until this team is hopefully playoff ready. He'll be 33 by then. Of course you can't give him away, but if he's willing to stay in a place and lose for years on end I think that tells alot about his true desire to win. Flip flops to work, great weather, no press coverage, no real fan expectations, just rakes in the cash. If he's willing to toil away knowing he can always schedule his vacation for April then that's his lame decision I guess.
If they do trade OEL for picks and prospects, I would like to see them take a chance on Tyson Barrie. He is a much better player than he showed in Toronto. Could be had for a reasonable deal.
Agree. I think he could be had in the 4's. He needs to rebuild his value.
If the Coyotes don't use one of their picks today to get Josh Doan, and don't get Shane on the zoom call to make the pick, I'm rioting.
Any idea what the attraction to either Vancouver or Boston is for OEL? Should be an interesting day and week for our new GM.
He likes the teams, sees a chance to win, likes the cities.
Why not Toronto?
He wants to win. *Ba dum tssss*
If OEL is moved, who is our top defensive pairing? Chychrun and Goligoski? That's a lot of responsibility for the former. Alternatively, do you think Armstrong would swing for Krug or even Pietrangelo, who he's gotten to know over the past few years?
Krug and Pietrangelo are older and expensive. Not in the Coyotes wheelhouse.
This ^.
Krug is the same age and Pietraneglo is year older. I'm just hoping we're able to ice a half-decent roster next year. The buyout of Grabner and the choice not to offer Hinostroza a deal but to qualify Fischer make me worry that we're further investing in the failing coaching abilities of Tocchet. In typical Coyotes luck, we'll probably be last in the league the one year we don't have a draft pick.
You're looking at a 70-75 pt team next year. There's nothing they are going to be doing that is building towards next year.
Why be a 70 point team if you have no first round draft pick? What's the value in that?
You don't understand, they have to rebuild this entire operation. Chayka screwed them w/ lousy contracts and no draft picks. They weren't making the playoffs last year w/o covid. And the team bleeds money. They are going to be cutting salary. You think paying Phil 6.8 per year is a good deal for this team?
Phil's an albatross on this team. But we were supposed to have that magic elixir (Tocchet) that could help him succeed. It didn't work. We should've gone after Zucker, but Rick really advocated for Kessel (and I'll cut him some slack there, he safely assumed he could motivate Kessel based on prior experience).